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Post Info TOPIC: Future of Hobby


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Future of Hobby
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It seems as though our political reps are going out of their way to make it difficult for us to carry on, let alone enjoy, our hobby?

They have already taken the lead out of gasoline, added corn in place of it, and want to add even more (E10 to E15 to E85).  They are now removing zinc phosphate (ZDDP) from motor oil to protect catalytic converters.

What is next, one wonders?  Soon, will they remove the internal combustion engine?

The time to assert our interests is now, I fear, or it may be too late.  Or, am I being unduly paranoid?  


-- Edited by DYaros on Sunday 7th of November 2010 02:19:53 AM

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Dave Yaros

1955 Cadillac Coupé de Ville
1962 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88
1992 Cadillac Allanté


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IMO these are all valid concerns.  However, there are valid reasons for this silly rules.

1.  Over time ZDDP fouls catalytic converters.  However using oil designed for diesel engines solves the ZDDP problem.

2.  Ethenol added to fuel as an oxegenate replaces the highly polluting MTBE that was used up to a few years ago.  Both reduce Nitrous Oxides and Carbon Monoxide.  You can still add lead additives.  I've me nobody who has experienced fuel system problems using E10.  E15 is only certified for vehicles 2007 and newer and the oil companies have no mandate to offer it for sale.  E85 is only good for flex fuel vehicles.

3.  I think the internal combustion engine is here for long after we've left the earth.  Certainly there will be something in the future but who knows what it is.

I think the future is darn good for antique and collectable cars and trucks.  It may take some consideration and additional cost to use them in the future but I think the aftermarket will continue to support them with new materials for old cars.  Certainly by the time a car is 30 to 40 years old the fuel lines probably should be replaced along with fuel pumps and carb gaskets that will make the old engines totally compatible with new fuels.  In the case of ZDDP I understand it critically important for flat tappet configurations to prevent premature cam wear.  I'll bet we'll see, if we haven't already, additives on the shelf.  In the meantime diesel oils have it.

Stabil is very important now with the new fuels as the ethenol attracts and holds moisture.  It's also corrosive to aluminum and I'm sure other metals.  But, I think 10% is the upper limit for older cars.

Steve

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Tbirdsps wrote:


I've met nobody who has experienced fuel system problems using E10.  E15 is only certified for vehicles 2007 and newer and the oil companies have no mandate to offer it for sale.

But, I think 10% is the upper limit for older cars.

Steve


Well, on this one we shall have to agree to disagree.

Here, in WI all stations sell only E15.  The addition of ethanol, in addition to destroying gaskets and causing leaks, (yes, a problem able to be corrected) has a lower boiling point that ordinary gas.  This factor yields a vapor lock condition in older cars.  I know, as I have experienced it!

 



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Dave Yaros
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1955 Cadillac Coupé de Ville
1962 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88 Conv
1992 Cadillac Allanté



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I had no idea that E15 is common there or anywhere.  Per the news/EPA E15 is only approved for 2007 and later models.

Yes indeed the E10 does cause carb boilover problems.  I experienced it first hand on my 82 Cougar.  It did not have the problem at sea level.  I live at 2,300 feet and I had the problem winter or summer.  I finally made a carb base plate out of a poly cutting board and it reduced the problem except in the hottest days over 110*F.

Here in California the maximum ethenol allowed it 10%.  Typically the mix is between 5 and 8%.

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I finally made a carb base plate out of a poly cutting board and it reduced the problem except in the hottest days over 110*F.
___________________________________________________________________


And what does the poly cutting board, extra space, whatever do?  Increase the distance the gas has to travel, allowing it to cool more, thereby reducing boiling potential?

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In the stock configuration with the 200 six and 1946 Holley carb the only thing between the manifold and the carb was a 1/4" gasket.  The poly cutting board insulates as well as a phenolic spacer and is 3/8" thick which helped a lot.

I could not find a phenolic material in the area.

I did perform a very scientific testbiggrin....I held the poly cutting board against the fully hot exhaust manifold,  when it did not melt I cut a piece in the same shape as the factory gasket.

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Steve -

And, has the car been driven for an extended period of time since, so that it reached and maintained operating temp?  I assume it has.

How did you come upon this solution?  What led (no pun intended) you to be in the market for a solution at all?  Did you experience a vapor lock problem, as I did?

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1992 Cadillac Allanté


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Dave,

I never had a vapor lock problem but the fuel bowl would dribble fuel in to the carb throat after about 2 minutes after shutting off the engine.  My understanding is that the boiling temperature of gasoline was reduced a lot with the addition of ethanol.  So, I needed to isolate the carb from the heat.  I tried a heat shield and that didn't work.  I tried adjusting the timing both retarding and advancing and that didn't help.  The only solution left was to install a phenolic spacer between the intake manifold and the carb.  I could not find any phenolic material so I tried the plastic cutting board material.  That worked for the most part reducing to problem to only the hottest days.

As I'm sure you know there's a fine balance between the fuel temperature and not having enough fuel temperature.  Fuel does not atomize when cold so with the inline six the exhaust manifold is right below the intake manifold. The problem is these engines were designed before fuel oxygenation was thought of, thus the problem.  Oxygenated fuel is great for computer controlled managed engines with fuel injection.  It doesn't work so well with some carburated engines.  I would imagine that V engines would have a lessor problem with fuel boiling but may have more problems with vapor lock.  Quite a few MOPAR products came from the factory with heat shields under the carberators so they obviously had a heat problem long before ethenol in gasoline. 

Steve

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It all makes sense.

What I do know is in the summer of 2009 I experienced vapor lock for the very first time in my life in my 62 Olds with a 394 c.i. V8 engine. I deduced it was vapor lock as I had spark, nothing I tried would get it to fire, and after 40 mins. of puttzing, without finding any problem, let alone a solution, she fired right up? The non-start condition was only after turning off the engine following a long, slow parade into a car show on a hot summer day.

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Dave Yaros
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1992 Cadillac Allanté



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That sounds like classic vapor lock to me. I swear it's the fuel today. The car companies would never have got away with delivering new cars that did this.

You have to wonder why Jay Leno puts modern engines in his classic cars. This is why.

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Hey, Jay Leno has enough money and help to do whatever he damn well pleases; unlike us schmucks who have to work for a living.

While I have never been there, my brother has had the tour of Jay's garage. Needless to say, my brother who is a car guy having build his own car, was more than impressed!

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Dave Yaros
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1992 Cadillac Allanté



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At least Jay Leno admits to having more money than sense. Ha Ha.  Did you know that he's never sold a car?

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Tbirdsps wrote:

At least Jay Leno admits to having more money than sense. Ha Ha.  Did you know that he's never sold a car?



No, I did not know that.  Interesting?  It seems to me, there are only so many stalls in his car barn, and eventually the place will be filled to capacity?  At that point, something has to give, does it not?  Of course, being in So. CA, he can park rides in the gated lot outside the building if need be, without weather worries.

The one thing I give him a lot of credit for is the fact he likes to work and play with his toys, not just display them.  He does get grease under his fingernails, and is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to mechanics.

 



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I do stand corrected on my E15 in WI remark.  I was dead wrong on that score.  It is only E10 that is now being forced down our tank spouts!

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Interesting enough my 92 Thunderbird runs real well with the E10 (20 mpg in town) but the gas tank doesn't like it much. For a long time I couldn't fill the tank past 3/4 as it would leak from the top. When I dropped the tank two months ago the ring seal was hard and brittle. Because the tank is beneath the rear seat under the car and spans the width of the car it's a pain to do on jack stands so I only wanted to do it once. I replaced the whole fuel pump/sender unit and the old one is very corroded and the plastic bits (which there are many) are quite brittle. The float does not move smoothly which explains why the gage would read full until it actually got down to 4 gallons when gravity finally overcame the gumminess of the float mechanism. Hopefully the replacement was engineered with ethanol in mind. I used a AirTex replacement that I've used before in my truck with satisfaction. It looks identical in every way to the Motorcraft original so hopefully long life.

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I too hope, for your sake, that repairs made use of ethanol compatible parts. It is a definite problem keeping our old rides up to date with the inevitable changes in technology.

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I agree.  Most carb rebuilt kits made today have modern materials but how long will the rest of the fuel system last?



-- Edited by Tbirdsps on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 12:55:29 PM

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I think that this method will not work. for example, how to do it right, you can see here



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